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Danae

Re: Helpful Books and Videos/laotan

Post by Danae »

laotan wrote; Indeed Taoism is based on insight when first emerged from superstitions. I am sorry but I must stress on this.[/quote]

Thank you, laotan for your response. I'm not sure I understand all of what you have said in your post and recent posts. I can only respond to what I believe you are saying.

I do not disagree that Taoism is based on insight. But, over five thousand years ago, people were not able to mass communicate with others around the world. Reading and writing was not something the general population could do. Few people were educated at all. What most people experienced was limited to their surroundings. Because their experiences were limited they could not have the capacity to understand things outside their lives, as people today can. They had to have personal inspired insight in order to understand the Tao.

I believe that now, people can obtain inspired insight without it being the direct result of an event that happened to them or happened at the same time the insight occurred. I believe a person can read an account of an event and relate it to something that happened to them in the past. They can obtain insight about that through the connection between what happened in the story and the event in their past. Later they can use the knowledge and turn it into wisdom by altering their thought process and their actions or non-actions. Thus that is their inspired insight.

And so I agree that inspired insight is needed, but I believe it can occur because of, but are not limited to, events that happen to a person. I believe something else can become a catalyst which starts their thought process in the right direction, which in turn leads them to the correct thinking. I disagree that the insight can only come to a person because of, and at the same time as, an event that happened to them.

I will continue to think about, consider and try to understand what you have said. If I am wrong in my thinking, I will gain the wisdom to understand the correct thinking at some point on my journey.

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laotan
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Re: wisdom of Tao/ Danae

Post by laotan »

Perhaps you forgot from were we start. You said that you applied the wisdom of Tao and I asked you for an example. I told you that that wisdom you mention is not necessary related to Tao, it may be human wisdom. What I wish to say is that wisdom of Tao is one specific to the Taoism only and not every and each wisdom, if I may say so. When you say "I am applying the Tao wisdom" you should point to the Taoism. Then I may ask you "how do you apply the Taoism wisdom to your own life?" The reason of my question is that people may learn from your own experience with the Tao applied to your life.

Danae

Re: wisdom of Tao/laotan

Post by Danae »

laotan wrote:Perhaps you forgot from were we start. You said that you applied the wisdom of Tao and I asked you for an example. I told you that that wisdom you mention is not necessary related to Tao, it may be human wisdom. What I wish to say is that wisdom of Tao is one specific to the Taoism only and not every and each wisdom, if I may say so. When you say "I am applying the Tao wisdom" you should point to the Taoism. Then I may ask you "how do you apply the Taoism wisdom to your own life?" The reason of my question is that people may learn from your own experience with the Tao applied to your life.
Thank you laotan. I now understand what my reply should have been. I believe you were correct in stating that my example was of general human wisdom rather than from the Tao. I remember it came from my studies of Zen or Confucianism (off hand I don't remember which) when I learned that unhappiness comes from unrealistic desires, expectations and attachments.

The Tao verse #63 seems to be similar, but I'm not sure if it applies to my example of accepting a person the way they are without having unrealistic expectations. Part of Tao verse # 63 states; "If you want real success, get beyond wanting." I could define "real success" as happiness and "wanting" as unrealistic expectations, but I will leave that determination to those who have more understanding of the Tao Te Ching than I.

I will need to examine my life with more determination if I wish to find an example of how I apply the Tao to my daily life, that matches a specific Tao verse. To find the matching verse will take a great deal of determination as well because I have difficulty using the version of the Tao Te Ching that I have. Perhaps in the future I'll be able to provide you with an example of how I apply the Tao to my daily life.

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Re: Helpful Books and Videos/Danae

Post by laotan »

What translation did you follow for the quoted #63?

Danae

Re: Helpful Books and Videos/Danae

Post by Danae »

laotan wrote:What translation did you follow for the quoted #63?
The translation I used for that quote is from, A Warrior Blends with Life, A Modern Tao, by Michael LaTorra. His commentary of that verse is: "If you want something strongly enough, you'll have it. If you want to stop wanting something strongly enough, you'll have that too. The essential treasure is always within your grasp."

When I look up the same verse in The Tao Te Ching, a new translation with commentary, by Ellen M. Chen it says: "Plan the difficult while it is easy. Accomplish the great when it is small."

I have great difficulty understanding the commentary in that book, but it seems like they're talking about keeping watch over things before they become problems. So in that case it does not fit with my example of ridding myself of unhappiness by getting rid of unrealistic expectations of other and accepting them for what they are.

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Re: Helpful Books and Videos / Danae

Post by laotan »

Here's the Legge version of the text:

(The master of it) anticipates things that are difficult while they
are easy, and does things that would become great while they are
small. All difficult things in the world are sure to arise from a
previous state in which they were easy, and all great things from one
in which they were small. Therefore the sage, while he never does
what is great, is able on that account to accomplish the greatest
things.


Please note the final explanation: Therefore the sage, while he never does
what is great, is able on that account to accomplish the greatest
things.


I think that the explanation for the sage's c onduct might be his nondoing (wu-wei) which allows him to step along with the course of things.

Another translation of the final sentence:

Thus the wise, not making much of them,
Can always see their great works through
. (Moss Roberts).

The author sees in this paragraph a criticism against Confucian values.

Danae

Re: Helpful Books and Videos / Danae

Post by Danae »

laotan wrote:
Another translation of the final sentence:

Thus the wise, not making much of them,
Can always see their great works through
. (Moss Roberts).

The author sees in this paragraph a criticism against Confucian values.
Thank you laotan. Do you agree with this translation and that there is criticism of Confucian values in the paragraph? I'm not sure what the meaning of the last line is but I have uneasy feelings about it. I may be wrong but it seems that not making much of things would be non-action and seeing their great works through would be action and together would cause conflict. I prefer the Legge version of Tao verse #63

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laotan
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Re: Helpful Books and Videos / Danae

Post by laotan »

Danae wrote:
laotan wrote:
Another translation of the final sentence:

Thus the wise, not making much of them,
Can always see their great works through
. (Moss Roberts).

The author sees in this paragraph a criticism against Confucian values.
Thank you laotan. Do you agree with this translation and that there is criticism of Confucian values in the paragraph? I'm not sure what the meaning of the last line is but I have uneasy feelings about it. I may be wrong but it seems that not making much of things would be non-action and seeing their great works through would be action and together would cause conflict. I prefer the Legge version of Tao verse #63

The following paragraph may lead to a criticism of the Confucian values. They esteemed much doing great deeds. But we may consider it also as an invitation to nondoing.

Therefore the sage, while he never does
what is great, is able on that account to accomplish the greatest
things.

NonTien

Re: Helpful Books and Videos

Post by NonTien »

Read any writings of Lin Yutang -

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laotan
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Re: Helpful Books and Videos

Post by laotan »

Lin Yutang is not better than Legge or other translators. There's no best translation of Tao te Ching. One discovers the truth of the Book only through personal practice.

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